MADELEINE BRAND, host:

The pictures of the abuse of Iraqi prisoners have drawn condemnation from many American politicians from President Bush to prominent senators. But in the Arab world, the photographs have brought particular disgust. With us now to discuss the Arab reaction is Raghida Dergham. She's the senior diplomatic correspondent for the Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat. I asked for a summary of the reaction.

Ms. RAGHIDA DERGHAM (Senior Diplomatic Correspondent, Al-Hayat): Basically, it's just about, `Just spare us, please. Do not speak democracy to us, do not lecture civility. You are the barbarians, not us. This was never about liberating Iraq and upholding the rule of law; this an invasion, a brutal occupation, an exercise of might, all for pocketing our resources while humiliating us.' That is the general reaction coming from the region.

BRAND: So it's not necessarily surprising, per se, as more a confirmation of what they had believed before.

Ms. DERGHAM: Exactly. That's what they've been reporting. They've been reporting Israeli-style occupation, they've been reporting abuses and atrocities, but no one believed them. It was said, of course, that there was outsourcing of brutal interrogation to others. That already was seen as deceptive; a claim that we are better, we're above it. Now that American soldiers are clearly implicated, there is talk about a pattern, not an isolated incident.

BRAND: Now some of the photos show Iraqi men piled naked on top of each other, other humiliating sexual poses. And we've heard that this is particularly offensive in a Muslim society. Why is that?

Ms. DERGHAM: Because nudity is not allowed. It's a conservative society. If you would hear an Arab or a Muslim speak in general against, let's say, an invader, they would say they want our land, they want to rape our women. So the idea of rape, of men or women, and the idea of sexual contact is really not accepted in a conservative society. So, therefore, it's really that culture of shame whenever it comes to sexual contact.

BRAND: How far back do you think this sets American efforts in terms of trying to convince Iraqis that they're there for their benefit?

Ms. DERGHAM: This is serious. I think this is the disgraced American, if you

will, in the minds of Iraqis--some Iraqis and some Arabs. I don't think this is going to somehow bring a total revolt against the soldiers, but I think there will be many people who will probably join the resistance. In effect, this could be the greatest way to recruit for organizations, either resistance or al-Qaeda type. But I believe it will depend how much do the Americans make it clear that this is not acceptable. There is talk about the chain of command now. Of course, some soldiers are being punished, but the issue remains: Who actually is responsible, in the Pentagon or other places, for that military intelligence overdue and to the extent that it became the disgraced American?

BRAND: There has been forceful condemnation on the part of President Bush and other senior military leaders, and more than a dozen members of the US military have now been disciplined. Will that be enough, do you think, to placate public opinion in the Arab world?

Ms. DERGHAM: No, I don't think so. I think Amnesty International is right to call for an independent investigation. I think the United Nations should be much more outspoken. I think there is an embarrassment, probably, for the Red Cross because they have visited allegedly some prisoners. And as we hear from the media, these atrocities were sort of kept away from the Red Cross. So I don't think just a reprimand one way or another by the American leadership is enough. There has been other atrocities--demolition of homes, and arrests without trial, arbitrary arrests in many times, and the innocents are paying a huge price. So I think this will need a very serious correction. This isn't about just punishing six or seven people.

BRAND: Raghida Dergham is senior diplomatic correspondent for the Arabic newspaper Al-Hayat, and she spoke to us from New York.

Thank you very much.

Ms. DERGHAM: Thank you.

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