CHRIS MATTHEWS, host: Welcome
back to HARDBALL. This half hour terrorism analyst Steve Emerson and
Christopher Whitcomb on how important finding Osama bin Laden is to the
war on terrorism.
But first, the HARDBALL debate tonight. Is the US going too far trying
to win goodwill from the Arabs? This week, the United States drafted a
UN resolution in the Security Council envisioning a Palestinian state.
That's the first time we've done that. On Wednesday, President Bush said
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's incursion into
Palestine-controlled areas wasn't helping us-US efforts at peace, and
Secretary of State Colin Powell demanded that Sharon withdraw Israeli
troops out of the Palestinian territories. All this in a week when
Mideast envoy Anthony Zinni is back in the region trying to reach a
cease-fire.
Are any of these moves helping America's image among Arabs? Daniel Pipes
is with the Middle East Forum, and Raghida Dergham is the senior
diplomatic correspondent for Al-Hayat, the Arabic newspaper.
Raghida, I've got to ask you the question, there's a lot of blowing of
kisses by the United States this week in the UN by Secretary Powell, all
kinds of efforts to try to show that we're even-handed. In fact, we're
sticking it to the Israelis just a little bit in the last week. Does
anybody in the Arab world hear us?
Ms. RAGHIDA DERGHAM (Al-Hayat Senior Diplomatic Correspondent): Of
course. It's high time that the United States and the administration
correct the wrongs that have been in its policy recently. And I think
they're doing just the right thing and the fair thing. And it's not
there yet. Of course, the vote in the Security Council was tremendous
and historic and very important. And it simply said 'a Palestinian state
and an Israeli state,' so it's not turning against Israel. It's really
leading the efforts for a co-existence, a peaceful settlement, a
consensus. Like we said last week, Chris, an international consensus is
developing, has taken shape in the UN vote. And I think, unfortunately,
Israel is still outside of it. Hopefully they will realize its
importance. '67 borders is a very good settlement for the Israelis, not
only for the Arab.
MATTHEWS: OK. Let's go to Daniel Pipes of the Middle East Forum.
Daniel, what's your view on this of this week of, you might call it
appeasement, concession. What-how's it add up as you see it.
Mr. DANIEL PIPES (Middle East Forum): Chris, you forgot the key fact,
which is Vice President Cheney is in the region. And the vice president
isn't there to try and broker something between the Arabs and Israel.
He's there to try and find support for an American military action
against Iraq, and that, I think, is the decisive factor here.
MATTHEWS: So this is a head fake? We're pretending to be tough on
Israel, but we're really trying to get the Arabs to cool down while we
go after Iraq?
Mr. PIPES: Well, more than cool down. We're trying to find some support.
We can go after Iraq on our own, but it's easier, more practical,
cheaper, if we can find bases and support locally. So that's the real
story here.
MATTHEWS: Well, it would be nice one of the countries bordering Iraq let
us use them as a base-as a launching pad. It's either Turkey or Saudi
Arabia or Kuwait. Don't we need at least one of them this week?
Mr. PIPES: Yeah. It's actually Saudi Arabia or Turkey because Kuwait
doesn't have the infrastructure.
MATTHEWS: OK. So, Saudi Arabia is obviously the largest one.
Mr. PIPES: But either-either...
MATTHEWS: So, in other words-in other words, you see this-this movement
by the United States-both in terms of the Security Council action
calling for a Palestinian state and basically making concessions to the
Arab side, the call this week, a very dramatic call by Secretary Colin
Powell to Sharon saying, 'Withdraw your forces from the occupied
territories,' you believe that that adds up to nothing more than a
tactical move to enhance the chances for success of the vice president
in forging some kind of a local coalition against Saddam Hussein?
Mr. PIPES: Exactly.
Ms. DERGHAM: If-if that...
Mr. PIPES: The Bush administration has made it clear that it supports
Israel in its war against the terrorists who are the same terrorists who
are fighting us. So this is-this is momentary. It's not significant.
MATTHEWS: Raghida:
Ms. DERGHAM: Can I say something about that, Chris?
MATTHEWS: Sure.
Ms. DERGHAM: You know, I should hope that it's not lip service. I do
hope that's not so because that's not good for the image or for the
credibility of the administration and the United States.
The point is, what is wrong for this administration to pursue the vision
of peace, of coexistence? Why should we think that this is wrong? It's
not de-departing from supporting Israel. The vote in the Security
Council does not constitute a position against Israel. And what the
administration is saying to-to Ariel Sharon is, 'Pull back. Stop defying
the international consensus and stop, you know, doing your offensive.'
Even The New York Times editorial said, 'Stop it. Enough is enough.' So
I don't really see that this is in any way lip service so that Iraqi
situation could go on. I hope not, anyway.
MATTHEWS: Do you know in economics or in mathematics, both of you, when
you try to reach a stable solution, you try to end the dynamic and-and
you reach sort of end point, the trouble is, isn't it, for the United
States, that every time we help the Arab side or encourage them, we keep
the movement going against Israel to its ultimate elimination. And every
time we take the Israeli side, we prevent any chance of their being any
peace because the Israelis are so powerful they don't need to cut a
deal. They keep moving.
Mr. PIPES: Look-look...
MATTHEWS: The problem is, we can't reach a stable solution whereby
Israel exists, it has secure borders, and it's accepted by its enemies
in the region. There is no stability. Can you imagine stability in the
Middle East, Mr. Pipes?
Mr. PIPES: Yeah, I...
MATTHEWS: Ever?
Mr. PIPES: I certainly can, Chris.
MATTHEWS: How so?
Mr. PIPES: Well...
MATTHEWS: Give me the definition of us achieving stability
without-with-until it ends?
Mr. PIPES: Well, it's actually not that hard to imagine. Look, the basic
elements of this conflict are simple. The Arabs want to destroy Israel.
Israel wants to have its existence accepted. That's what this has been
about for over 50 years. So, whereas supporting the Arabs against Israel
would lead to the elimination of Israel, supporting Israel against the
Arabs leads to a sense of futility in the hope-leads to a sense of
futility about destroying Israel. That is, in fact, a peaceable
solution.
MATTHEWS: But that ignores the fact...
Ms. DERGHAM: And that...
MATTHEWS: ...that the Arabs have the potential to reach a country with a
much lar-larger perimeter to defend-that's us. They can strike at us
anywhere in the world because of our support for Israel. You act like
that's an irrelevant fact. Sure, if we're tough on behalf of Israel,
it's better for Israel. But we expose ourselves to the antipathy of the
Arab and Islamic world, obviously.
Mr. PIPES: Chris, our goal in the Arab/Israeli conflict...
MATTHEWS: Don't we?
Mr. PIPES: Chris, our goal in the Arab/Israeli conflict is for there not
to be another round of war.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. PIPES: The best thing we can do is signal to the Arabs that war
against Israel is futile. It's not going to go anywhere and they might
as well stop it and go and build a flourishing economy and a flourishing
culture and a...
MATTHEWS: Do you believe that's succeeding?
Mr. PIPES: ...and an open political society.
Ms. DERGHAM: That...
MATTHEWS: Do you believe that strategy is succeeding?
Mr. PIPES: I-I think whenever we do it, it does succeed, absolutely.
MATTHEWS: OK. Raghida:
Ms. DERGHAM: Can I say something?
MATTHEWS: Sure. Go ahead.
Ms. DERGHAM: Yes. Can I say something on this? Listen, I really regret
that Daniel Pipes would to-have to go on pushing that line of hatred and
war. The fact of the matter is that there is a road map to peaceful
coexistence. And I don't know why this is so hard to accept and there is
such a need to resist. There is an Arab initiative. It's the Saudi crown
prince who has come up with a recognition-not only recognition of Israel
but also normalization with Israel if there is a full withdrawal from
the occupied territories, and this will be endorsed in the Beirut
summit. What's wrong in accepting peaceful settlement? I mean, why,
Daniel, why is it that you have to bring in the hatred and the war and
the fight and let's condescend?
Mr. PIPES: Raghida...
Ms. DERGHAM: What does it get this for the United States?
Mr. PIPES: I'm not bringing it in.
Ms. DERGHAM: Even in our interests...
Mr. PIPES: It exists.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...and the interests of the United States, why do you want
to push that? It's against our interests in the region.
Mr. PIPES: But, Raghida, I want to end the war, and...
Ms. DERGHAM: Well, how-but we-but Daniel, since...
Mr. PIPES: I think the way wars end is when an one side gives up on
trying to achieve it's goal of destroying...
Ms. DERGHAM: Because-because-that...
Mr. PIPES: ...destroying the other.
Ms. DERGHAM: You are so wrong.
Mr. PIPES: That-that leads to peace.
Ms. DERGHAM: You are so wrong. The very premise you are taking is so
wrong and-and false, in fact, you're saying the Arabs are going to
destroy Israel.
Mr. PIPES: I am.
Ms. DERGHAM: And the Arabs are saying they have an initiative right out
there. They're saying, 'We will not only accept Israel, but we will
normalize with Israel.'
Mr. PIPES: And you know how I understand that?
Ms. DERGHAM: 'And what Israel has to withdraw-only end its occupation,
not end it's existence.'
MATTHEWS: If it's so hopeless, Daniel, why is Egypt at least honoring a
cold peace with Israel?
Mr. PIPES: The...
MATTHEWS: A much warmer peace-a substantial warmer peace you have in
Israel with Jordan. You have the chance of Syria moving a bit closer to
stopping its support for terrorism. Why do you take the view that the
United States has to play this tough role on behalf of Israel rather
than go ahead with the tilt it was operating with this week...
Mr. PIPES: Chris...
MATTHEWS: ...to-in order for Israel to get friendly-have some friends in
the region?
Mr. PIPES: Chris, there's a war underway. There's a war between Israel
and the Palestinians. And either you're going to support the
Palestinians in their wish to destroy Israel, or you're going to support
Israel in their wish to be left alone and accepted. That's what it boils
down to. All this nonsense about Abdullah plans and Tenet plans and
Zinni plans is meaningless. It's going to go nowhere. You don't come in
the middle of the war with some kind of clever scheme and say, 'Here,
guys, stop fighting and agree to our terms.' That's not going to happen.
Let's get real about this. This isn't real, this talk of peace plans.
There's a war underway, just as there was a war a few months ago with us
against Afghanistan. If you come to me and said, 'Here, here's a peace
plan between the Taliban and the United States,' I'd have said it's
silly. There's a war. Let's-let's-let's-one side or other's going to win
this war, and that's what this is about now.
MATTHEWS: Where was this war you talk about before September, 2000?
Where was this war that you say was inevitable?
Mr. PIPES: The-the-the war...
MATTHEWS: There's long periods of relative peace between Israel and its
neighbors that go on, where you have occasional terrorism but the
countries are not fighting with each other. Why do you say this is
inevitable, this war between these countries?
Mr. PIPES: Chris, there has been a war ever since Israel came to exist
in 1948. Israel has been fighting for its survival and its enemies have
been fighting to destroy it. At times, you're absolutely right, there's
a hot war and very intense, and other times it's-it's quite quiet. But
the war...
MATTHEWS: Why don't we encourage the quiet?
Mr. PIPES: ...is there all the time.
Ms. DERGHAM: Chris...
MATTHEWS: Why don't we encourage the quiet?
Mr. PIPES: Well, I'm happy to have quiet, obviously, but that does-what
we need is closure. What we need is for the war to end.
Ms. DERGHAM: What we need, Daniel...
Mr. PIPES: And the only way it's going to end is either to have Israel
destroyed or Israel accepted. These...
Ms. DERGHAM: No, what...
Mr. PIPES: These-these in...
Ms. DERGHAM: It can end. Daniel...
MATTHEWS: Raghida...
Ms. DERGHAM: ...will you permit me?
MATTHEWS: You first.
Ms. DERGHAM: Well, it-it can definitely end, Daniel, with ending the
occupation. And I just want to say, thank the Lord...
Mr. PIPES: That's silly, Raghida.
Ms. DERGHAM: No, no. It's not. But thank-thank...
Mr. PIPES: That's silly. There-there was no occupation...
Ms. DERGHAM: Can I say-can...
Mr. PIPES: ...before 1967.
Ms. DERGHAM: May I-may...
Mr. PIPES: And the-and the effort of the Arabs was to destroy Israel
then.
MATTHEWS: If the occupation ended up...
Ms. DERGHAM: May..
MATTHEWS: Yeah. OK. Let Raghida get a turn.
Ms. DERGHAM: May I? Yes.
MATTHEWS: Your turn.
Ms. DERGHAM: I just want to say, Daniel, I thank the Lord that what we
have in the White House and in the ranks of diplomacy here, we have
people who do not think along the lines that you do. And thank God,
also, in Israel we have certain number of people, a constituency who...
Mr. PIPES: Well, thank God they don't think...
Ms. DERGHAM: ...that will come-that we will...
Mr. PIPES: ...along the way you do, either, Raghida.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...that we will come to a-to a solution not to say, 'Let's
just keep on killing.' Because really, keeping on killing is not a
solution.
Mr. PIPES: I'm not in favor of killing.
Ms. DERGHAM: This equation, one will have destroy each other. The point
is that in the peace plan...
Mr. PIPES: You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say anything about
being in favor of killing. Let me make that clear.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...the war-the war will end-the war will end if there is an
end to occupation, Daniel. And that's the point. It's not like that,
'Let's choose'...
MATTHEWS: Well, this week the United States called for an end to the
occupation. We're going to see next week what happens. Anyway, thank you
for joining us tonight, Daniel Pipes...
Ms. DERGHAM: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: ...and Raghida Dergham.
Ms. DERGHAM: Thank you.
MATTHEWS: Two very different views.
