CHRIS MATTHEWS, Host:
Tonight, why do so many in the Arab world resent America? Tonight, we
have more hard facts to help answer that critical question. The United
Nations has released a new study of human development in 22 Arab
nations. It's a look at the political and economic conditions that may
help fuel hostility toward the Western world. The report was supervised
by a team of well-known Arab academics and leaders. It found, quote,
"Growth in per capita income in Arab countries was the lowest in the
world except for Africa."
TEXT:
Arab Human Development Report 2002
"Growth in per capita income was the lowest in the world except
sub-Saharan Africa."
MATTHEWS: The combined gross domestic product of all 22 Arab countries
together was less than Spain's GWP--GDP.
TEXT:
Arab Human Development Report 2002
GDP of Spain $595.5 Billion
Combined GDP of all Arab Countries $531.2 Billion
MATTHEWS: And investment in research and development, R&D, in Arab
countries was less than one seventh of the world average.
TEXT:
Arab Human Development Report 2002
Investment in research and development is less than one seventh of the
world's average.
MATTHEWS: For a look at those numbers and more, we're joined by Raghida
Dergham, chief diplomatic correspondent at Al-Hayat newspaper, Professor
Khaled Abou El Fadl from UCLA Law School and prof--and Mr. Ziad Asali
who's president of the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee.
Let me start with you, Raghida, what do you make of these numbers? Do
they surprise you, this low economic performance by Arab countries?
Ms. RAGHIDA DERGHAM (Al-Hayat): Not so, because I knew there was a
problem already. I have been trying to tackle this problem in my column
for Al-Hayat quite often, speaking of both the--the necessity to address
more than the one issue that's preoccupying the Arab world which is the
Arab/Israeli conflict. There is a need for reform. There is a need for
democracies. And I think this is a--quite a sad statement, this report.
But I think it's a very important report. And the fact that Arabs have
written it and Ar--Arabs are trying to finding a solution, looking
forward...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...under the UNDP guide is--I think is quite helpful.
MATTHEWS: That legitimizes it. Professor Khaled--Mr. El Fadl, Professor
El Fadl, let me ask you--because you've written in this area. And, of
course, anybody who saw "Lawrence of Arabia" or anything as primitive as
that knows that the Arab world and the Islamic world was profoundly
ahead of the West many centuries ago. What happened?
Mr. KHALED ABOU EL FADL (UCLA Law School Professor): Well, in my view,
the--the main problem, right now, is autocracy, lack--and lack of
critical thinking. We had--the--the governments in power right now in
the Arab world are not accountable governments and do not teach
accountability. Therefore, people--hu--the--the citizenry, at large,
gets into the habit of a lackadaisical, passive, noncritical attitude
towards government and society. And that, in my view, is the key element
that explains the--the embarrassing state...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: ...the--the extremely tra--tragic state of the Arab
world right now.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask Mr. Asali--you know, I was thinking the other day
that I can't think of a single ethnic or national group that's come to
America in the last 300 years that hasn't done better here than it did
at home. What--how do you explain the discrepanc--the discrepancy
between Arab and Islamic performance here in the United States where
everyone does pretty well, if not very well, compared to how they did in
Palestine or anywhere else they lived before?
Mr. ZIAD ASALI (American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee): Yeah,
actually, it is a statement about the--the culture that the individuals
with--who carry themselves to a system where it makes it possible for
them to produce and to be productive and--and do their best, they do
exceptionally well. It is an indictment, really, of the system of
governance in the Arab world in general because it's the same
individuals pretty much. You move them elsewhere, and they do much
better. So what this study shows us actually is a critical but
sympathetic view of a culture...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. ASALI: ...by a people who know what they're talking about. And what
they do point out is the want, the lack of human development, a lack of
economic development and the lack of fund of knowledge, which is...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. ASALI: ...the key to the lack of development.
MATTHEWS: Let--gentlemen and lady, let's talk about the possibility of
freedom here. "Out of the seven regions of the world, Arab countries had
the lowest freedom score in the late 1990s." Now that comes from Arab
assessments. What do you make of that, Raghida, the fact that in Arab
countries, they have less freedom, relative to the rest of the world?
Ms. DERGHAM: Well, yes, it's been that, and it's been a problem
especially for me. As a woman, I have a fundamental problem with that
and also as a journalist, mind you. I think that has not been the lack
of con--basically, it's the lack of institutions that has been talk and
has been promises. And they may have felt in the Arab countries that
they needed to go forward for democratic processes. But then, every now
and then, they'd have an excuse avoided. The latest, Chris, would be
security. In the name of security, there is now sort of an obsession of
all, the United States, Israel. Now the Arabs are also taking security
as a pretext to circumvent the need for really urgent...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...democratic processes. That does not negate the fact that
there are other problems that are preoccupying the public opinion and
the governments. But the fact of the matter that you cannot only count
on one thing at a time, we do have a problem with the Arab/Israeli
conflict. But it is also...
MATTHEWS: Right. You mentioned that.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...problem of poverty and...
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about the fact that two thirds of
Arab--the--the--the illiterate people in the Arab world are women.
TEXT:
Arab Human Development Report 2002
"65 million adults are illiterate, almost two-thirds of them women."
MATTHEWS: What do you make of that? What does that do in terms of
wasting talent?
Ms. DERGHAM: My God, and how. And actually, I would even argue
that--that women in the Arab world have proven to be quite remarkable,
given the circumstances under which they have lived, be it governmental,
where there are no legal--no laws to protect them in most countries. So
I think tha--that--that if they utilize this magnificent, resourceful
sector of the society, the women, in particular, I think that will help
the Arab countries really overcome a bit of their major difficulties.
MATTHEWS: Prof--Professor El Fadl, in this country, women finally got
the vote in the early 20th century because the men voted for them. They
finally br--relinquished their monopoly on the vote and said, 'All
right. The women can vote.' And that probably changed a whole lot of
things in this country in terms of education. When are the men in the
Arab world going to relinquish their monopoly on the power to read?
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: Well, listen, autocracy, the--the way that
authoritarianism and autocracy works is that by definition it--it
foments and empowers patriarchy. Arab men feel disempowered. They feel,
in fact, I would say, emasculated as men. They take it out on women.
They deny power. They assert their power over women in their household,
women in society and so on. I think to add to--to the valid points made
so far, another crucial element in the development of--of--of the Arab
world, of my people...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: ...because I speak as an Arab, is that we get out of
the cultural habit of trying to project blame upon the other, that we
take responsibility for our own problems and confront them and say
first, 'Where have we, as a...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: ...people gone wrong?' Not where...
MATTHEWS: Mr. As--Mr. Asali, let me...
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: ...someone forced us to go wrong.
MATTHEWS: Let's move on that point, Mr. Asali. It seems like in this
country--you're an American like me. It seems like in this country, you
read the paper in the morning at 7:00 when the kids off to school, and
you say to your wife, 'What do you think of this crazy thing in the
paper?' Apparently in the Arab world, you don't say, 'What do you think
of this thing in the paper,'...
Mr. ASALI: No, they do.
MATTHEWS: ...because your wife can't read the paper.
Mr. ASALI: They do. No, no, they do, but it's a different crazy thing
that they're talking about. What it is now that is significant is that
this report actually opens the way to legitimize debate about an issue
that is of crucial importance to all.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. ASALI: Up till now, it's been hard to criticize the Arab governance,
which is at the core of--of what's wrong and criticize so many other
aspects of Arab societies. So now when you have the door open, it will
embolden people to be critical without being accused of having sold out
to the West or having gone too liberal or having gone out...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Mr. ASALI: ...of the culture. So that is...
MATTHEWS: Mr. Asali, if--if the Arab world was rich and Israel
would--was poor, relatively speaking, would the people of the Arab world
give a damn about Israel at all, if it was just a--a poor, little, lousy
country with no economic prospects and everybody was miserable, living
in villages and tents? Isn't the fact that Israel's doing so damn well
the reason why they're resented by their neighbors?
Mr. ASALI: Actually, this is an argument that you hear quite often.
What...
MATTHEWS: Is it true?
Mr. ASALI: What I would submit is that there is an element of--of land
exchange here that is at the core of how the Arabs perceive their
grievance against Israel is that it has taken away their land.
MATTHEWS: Well, yeah, that's a good argument. And I think it's a fair
one. In fact, I've made it on the show. But isn't a fact that if Israel
was poor and the Arab world was rich, there'd be less heat here?
Mr. ASALI: Yeah, well, of course, there is always the problem of the
rich being a subject of--of resentment by the people who are less
privileged. That's--that's a universal thing and in every class, in
every country.
MATTHEWS: I agree with you.
Mr. ASALI: So there is that.
MATTHEWS: It's normal. Jealousy is normal. Look, a poll conducted...
Ms. DERGHAM: Actually, I...
MATTHEWS: ...in conjunction--let me--just a minute, Raghida, you're
going to respond to this. More than half of young Arab people surveyed
wanted to emigrate to other countries.
TEXT:
Arab Human Development Report 2002
"More than half of young Arab people surveyed wanted to emigrate to
other countries, mostly to industrialized countries outside the region."
MATTHEWS: They mostly wanted to go to industrialized countries like this
one outside the region. Doesn't it hurt a people--like the Irish had to
put up with this for years. They all wanted to come to America because
nothing was going on economically. Now that's all changed over there.
Isn't that strange that they don't like the West, a lot of Arabic and
Islamic people, but they can't wait to get there?
Ms. DERGHAM: Well, that's--that's what the lack of liberty and
expressing your point of view and not having the laws to protect you
that produce that sort of interest and trying to say, 'Let me out of
here.' But also, I think there's so much discrepancy in the Arab world
between certain countries and other certain people and others so that we
have a class system that's...
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...really devastating, that's a very big problem. I don't
think there is a jealousy of Israel's wealth. Look, the--the--the Gulf
states, the oil states that all had wealth--and then apparently there
are some who believe that either they squandered it or they paid it for
lots of wars, including the war over Iraq and also for importing
security, including the American provis--pro--providing security for
that part of the world. So there's lots of arguments about who's got it,
who's not.
The fact of the matter there is poverty that shouldn't be in that part
of the world. There's illiteracy that shouldn't be. And there is a bad
treatment of women, that it's about time it should stop. And it is not a
single issue that the Arabs should care about. It's about time this...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. DERGHAM: ...pro--this United Nations Develop Program report tells
them, 'Get up and do something about your lives.'
MATTHEWS: Right.
Ms. DERGHAM: 'Stop exporting blame.'
MATTHEWS: Mr. Asali, I--I love the fact you're an American and speak
from a perspective of having an ethnic background in that region. But an
American reality, the--the Arab-Americans--I know a lot of Lebanese
people and other Arabs in this country, they do very well in this
country. They're just as well--I'm sure they're above the average in
this country economically. Do they ever look back and wonder what went
wrong back home?
Mr. ASALI: Well, they do. It's--it's a question of--of concern for all
immigrants, I'm sure what happens in their--in their original homes. And
what has gone wrong actually was summed up in this report pretty well,
and there are no secrets. There is this fundamental problem with the
government in the Arab world, absence of freedom, and that permeates
across. It's a lack of institutions, lack of economic opportunities,
lack of women's liberation, lack of educational opportunities. All of
these reflect a--a governance system-wide problem. People know what's
wrong. The question is how to fix it. What is needed of the West--and
this does provide an opportunity--is--is a sympathetic understanding.
These are people. The individuals are groping with a very difficult set
of circumstances in their lives. And it would be helpful to look at a
way out to help people out of this mess, rather than to have them meet
hopelessness and misery and--and be turned into something that is
unpleasant for all of us.
MATTHEWS: Professor El Fadl, last word, do you think there's any chance
of an Arab renaissance?
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: There--there is only if Arab security prisons are
emptied of prisoners of conscience. What I mean is that there will be no
public discourse about this report or any other as long as Arabs, like
myself, are forced to leave their countries because at one time or
another, the security forces popped up at their front door, arrested
them and put them in--in dungeons. I was one of the fortunate ones who
was not destroyed by the experience. But there are hundreds upon
hundreds of freedom--of--of free thinkers, intellectuals and brilliant
people who disappear...
MATTHEWS: OK.
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: ...in these dungeons of torture.
MATTHEWS: OK, thank you.
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: And until that ends...
MATTHEWS: We ought to have a...
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: ...there is no renaissance.
MATTHEWS: We ought to have a program some night on the problems of
Israeli society as well. It's not perfect. Anyway, thank you gentlemen
for having a great discussion.
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: You're welcome.
MATTHEWS: And Raghida, thank you for joining us and Professor Asali...
Mr. ABOU EL FADL: Thanks.
MATTHEWS: ...and Professor El Fadl.
Up next, Ann Coulter on media bias and her argument the liberals hate
America. She's coming back, Ann Coulter.
And later, HARD--the HARDBALL DEBATE tonight. Is former President Bill
Clinton to blame for the recent wave of corporate scandal? Some people
think he is. That's Lawrence Cudlow. He does. Jim Cramer is defending
Clinton.
And David Gergen's going to be here with a look at the latest Gallup
Poll. Interesting stuff. You're watching HARDBALL.
