Dergham: At the meeting between President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, Monday, the president spoke of reform and institution building in a way that seems to be a precondition to a political final settlement. Is this the wrong reading? Or is it what he means?

Secretary Powell: I think we're moving down several very distinct tracks, and we'll move down them together. Neither is a precondition for any of the other. One track is reformation of the Palestinian Authority. We believe this is important. The Arab nations believe it's important. But most importantly, the Palestinians themselves realize that they needed some transformation of the authority in their government. And that has been reflected in Chairman Arafat's decision over the weekend to cut his cabinet by a third, bring in some new people. This is all good. And Mr. Tenet had good discussions with Chairman Arafat on what the security transformation should look like, and many of the Arab nations have ideas as well. So that's going to go forward, and we look forward to working with Palestinian leaders, Chairman Arafat and others, on this transformation. So that's point one.

Secondly, we think there is a need to do more with respect to humanitarian and economic activities. The Palestinian people are hurting. They're hurting as a people. And so as we move forward down toward the President's vision, we want to do more with respect to economic relief and humanitarian relief, getting open ---allowing people to go to work, allowing people to go to school.

The third part of it is the political track, and what we have said is that the people of the region need to see a political horizon, something that brings them a conclusion to all of this at some point in the future. And we are in discussion with others as to whether or not there should be a provisional stage on the way to that; how do you get to that. And clearly, these all have to move together, and the meeting that we're planning to hold in the summer will talk to all three of these tracks. Now-

Dergham: Parallel?

Secretary Powell: Our position is clear. We have made it clear-The President in his April 4th Speech, which stands as his vision, talked about the end of occupation; it talked about settlements and the end of settlement activity, it picked up on what the President had said in the United Nations. Last fall for the first time an American President, before an international body, right here in New York City, called for the establishment of a Palestinian state called Palestine. The president has not set back one foot from that vision, and he knows that to get to that vision it may be necessary to have a provisional state, an interim step; it may take several steps to get there. And he also knows that transformation will be necessary in order to help the Palestinian people and as well to make conditions ripe for moving forward. And so his position is clear, and he hasn't stepped back from it.

Dergham: Mr. Secretary, what do you mean by "provisional state"?

Secretary Powell: Something that is-that we can create that is, that can be called a state. And many people have spoken about this. I'm not making new policy now; I'm just saying one of the models that is out there, that you create a provisional state so that you have something in the very near future that the Palestinian people can see as a step on the way towards the settlement of this in a comprehensive way; something they can put their hopes in, their dreams in something the international community can invest in with some confidence.

But to create this kind of provisional state, it has to be a state that has good governance, that there's transparency, that there's no corruption, that the security organizations work well. And if you can put all of that in that kind of a state, it will become more efficient and it will help us develop the confidence that is needed between the two parties to move forward. But the president has not stepped away from his goal of having a Palestinian state called Palestine, as he says at every opportunity, two states living side by side in peace and in security.

Dergham: Right, But how long then before this provisional state and this state of Palestine?

Secretary Powell: The President has received a number of ideas with respect to this. As you know, since my trip, back to the 4th of April, he sent me on my trip, and I consulted with a number or people and then Ambassador Burns went and did some consulting. Mr. Tenet has been there. A number of visitors have come to the United States, President Mubarak over the weekend, now Prime Minister Sharon. We expect other visitors to come. The President is pulling all of these insights together, and I expect that in the near future, as he said last Friday, he will let people know what he believes is the proper route forward.

Dergham: It has been said that there will be a proposal or a plan that would go beyond endorsing the idea of an independent state In that case, should we expect a road map to Palestine? Or is what some are thinking correct-that institution bulging is the way to somehow evade and avoid that question of Palestine the state in place of occupation?

Secretary Powell: The President has no intention of avoiding the question of Palestine. He knew what he said when he spoke at the United Nations. He knew what I was saying when I spoke at Louisville, and I spoke with his full support. So we know what we have been saying, and he knew what he was saying in the 4 April speech. And the 4 April speech is clear. But at the same time, he also said that he has been disappointed by the performance of Chairman Arafat, and he wants to appeal to Chairman Arafat, and to all other Palestinian leaders, to come up with institutions that would support a state, whether it's provisional or the final comprehensive settlement; come up with a state that has the kinds of institutions that a state must have in order to serve the needs of its people. And increasingly, I am noting that the Palestinian people are also asking for reform in their government.

Dergham: "End the occupation," This is policy of the United States, of this administration?

Secretary Powell: Yes, you can look at the President's 4 April speech

Dergham: So end of occupation means what? Land occupied in 1967?

Secretary Powell: It means that ultimately the two sides, using the basis of UN Resolutions 242, 338, 1397, 1402, 1403, the 4 April speech, the Louisville speech, and the most interesting one in recent months, Crown Prince Abdullah's vision which was then reflected in an Arab League declaration - - using all of those documents and all off those statements over the years, gives us a basis for finding a way to trade land for peace and creating a state with boundaries that both sides agree upon. Now, there can be no settlement that will stick if both sides don't agree on what the dimensions of the state are that will be one of the more difficult tasks of diplomacy in the months to decide what that boundary is. What I don't think we should get stuck on right now is I think it should be this, you think it should be that:

Sooner or later, the two sides, as we move forward, as we build institutions, as we perhaps move to a provisional state, if that's what the parties want, then these issues will have to be joined. But there is a basis for joining these issues on the basis of all those documents I just made reference to.

Dergham: Back to Sharon's op-ed in The New York Times, The answer in this piece is pretty much "No" to most of you mentioned. He says I will not even discuss going back to '67 borders, he does not mention settlements and he said no to a divided Jerusalem he said that he wants interim measures, no permanent status. And in a way by the United States and not a feedback from this administration to say no, you don't...

Secretary Powell: You don't know what he heard yet.

Dergham: Okay, well, please, then tell me...

Secretary Powell: He Frankly, he came here knowing the positions of the United States with respect to the tend of the occupation, to the creation of a state called Palestine, and to the end of settlement activity is also contained in the Mitchell Report which has been out there. So I understand what the Prime Minister put in his op-ed piece, and that's his choice to do so as the elected Prime Minister of a democratic government, and I also know the positions that have been taken by a number of the Arab States. Now, what the United States will have to do is to bring all of that together. And the President, as he said last Friday, will lay out his vision on how to move forward; not just to put out another vision, but to put out a way forward to make that vision a reality.

Dergham: When do you think the President will do so?

Secretary Powell: I think I will wait - and I don't think it will be this week, but I think I will wait for the President to make those decisions.

Dergham: Why does the President say we are not ready to lay down a specific calendar? Why is that?

Secretary Powell: Because on Saturday, when the question was put to him, we were still consulting. That's why President Mubarak was at Camp David. It's why we were waiting for Prime Minister Sharon to come. And we were still in the consulting phase, the President thought it was not appropriate for him at that point in a press conference to say it should be this.

Dergham: So that doesn't mean that the administration is against a timeline for negotiations and a date for a Palestinian State?

Secretary Powell: If you read what he said carefully, he said at this time he was not prepared to go that far and was rather - he did not give that date now or a number of years not. But that's all it meant. He didn't say he wouldn't, just that he was not prepared to do on Saturday.

Dergham: So there is still a possibility that this administration would agree to a timeline on negotiations and on maybe a date for a Palestinian state?

Secretary Powell: Well, what the President is doing now is gathering all the input and continuing to talk to people, on the telephone and in person. And in due course, in the very near future, he will lay out exactly how he thinks we should move forward.

Dergham: So what about the interim measures? Where does the administration stand on this term; approach? I understand that the "Quartet" agrees on the need for a final settlement.

Secretary Powell: I think almost everybody has come to the agreement that there is a need for provisional or interim steps. The questing is for how long should that be the case, and how does one get to the comprehensive solution at the end. And that's where we're having the most interesting discussions and receiving a great deal of advice, as you might imagine. And so we'll wait and see what the President announces, but it won't be in the far-too-distant future.

Dergham: International conference confusion- regional, international, what purpose terms of reference. Let me take it, as they say, from the horse's mouth here. Can you set the record straight on that conference - - summer, end of July, whatever? Anything? Set the record straight if you will.

Secretary Powell: I can set the record very straight because I'm the one who will be in the chair, I think. There will be a meeting, a conference - call it what you will - and it will take place this summer, and it will deal with the issues that we -

Dergham: Where, when?

Secretary Powell: I don't have a where yet, but that's not a problem. Lots of people wish to host it. Exactly when, I think I'm going to wait until after the President makes his statement and then give a greater definition of where and when. And we will do everything we can to get this process started so that we have people who are working with the sides on transformation, people who are working with both sides on economic and humanitarian issues, and we'll being what will be very, as you can expect, complex discussions on a political way forward.

But we understand - the Madrid Quartet - that it has to include all these things. You can't have a conference just on security, just to meet on security, you can't have a conference just on a political way forward, and you can't have a conference just on humanitarian aid. You have to do all. It will be a conference that is not for the purpose of solving any problem, but for the purpose of bringing the parties together with interested others who might be there. And it's not the last conference. It will be one, I think, of a number of conferences that we hold in the future to move forward. It will be a conference that is intended to talk politics in a very open king of way, and talk things like security in a very definitive kind of way as to what has to be done.

Dergham: ministerial?

Secretary Powell: It's ministerial to the extent that I will be the American representative. Now, as we go forward we will see who will be representing other parties.

Dergham: Syria, Lebanon included or excluded?

Secretary Powell: As we go forward, we will see who is invited.

Dergham: What about the first conference?

Secretary Powell: Thus far we have not yet put together the invitation list, and we are not yet ready to put out those kinds of details.

Dergham: The administration's policies are perceived in the Middle East as giving the green light to Israel and to Mr. Sharon as he kills Palestinians. There is a conviction amongst many that the US, this administration or the US in general, anti-Arab, anti-Muslim. They say, look, the US says no settlements, Sharon goes on with them. He comes here and one day before meeting with President Bush, he tries to go right back into the compound of Mr. Arafat. So how can you defend the policy when you're always criticizing Arafat but you're always absolving Sharon? Can you start to use the tools of the United States to really be equal-handed and, do whatever is necessary because in the national interest of the USA?

Secretary Powell: Let me answer that this way. First, the US is committed to Israel and has been for many, many years, and we'll do whatever is required to make sure that Israel is safe within its borders. The US is also committed to helping the Palestinian people get a homeland. We are interested in the Welfare of the Palestinian family as we are of an Israeli family, no child is more precious than any other child. So we are trying to move forward in a way that shows we respect the rights of both sides, the obligations of both sides, and we know that both sides will have to make sacrifices-

Dergham: But you don't pressure both sides equally. You run a blind eye to what Sharon does.

Secretary Powell: If you think it wasn't pressure for the US President to stand up and say a Palestinian state called Palestine, and for him to stand there of the 4th of April and specifically talk about ending the occupation and ending the settlement activity, that is pressure on Prime Minister Sharon, and it is a clear statement to Israel that both sides have to give.

If you that it wasn't - if you think it was an easy matter for the President to sent me to the Middle East in April and make sure that I went to see Chairman Arafat twice in those very difficult circumstances in the Muqata'a, and we worked very hard to relieve the siege of the Muqata'a and to relieve the siege in the Church of the Nativity so that we could get things moving forward. And so I think we are trying to assist both sides to meet its responsibility and obligations. No one likes to see an Israeli tank go in and shoot up a house, nor does anybody want to see a busload of young people being destroyed by a bomb. And so what we have to do is find a way forward, and we are trying to take into account the sensitivities on both sides, the obligations on both sides, the responsibilities on both sides.

It will all stop if the terror stops. If there were no car bombs, if there were no suicide bombings, if the terror would stop right away, if the Palestinian leadership would understand that they are destroying - that those who commit these kinds of acts are destroying the dreams of the Palestinian people, a lot more could be done very, very quickly.

Dergham: Are you against the expulsion of Mr. Arafat?

Secretary Powell: Mr. Arafat is the Chairman of the Authority and the Leader of the Palestinian people, and we believe that he should continue to be that until such time as the Palestinian people choose otherwise, not others.

Dergham: On Iraq, when is he going to launch military strikes against Iraq?

Secretary Powell: Nobody has decided within the US administration, and the only one who could decide is the President, to launch a military strike against Iraq. He has no plans on his desk, and we, his advisors, have not given him a recommendation.

Dergham: So-

Secretary Powell: And it is not clear what he will do. He has a range of options he's pursuing, and we are working within the UN on sanctions, which we have fixed , and on getting the inspectors back in. We are pursuing a full range of diplomatic and political activity. We don't think that Saddam Hussein is good for the region or good for his people. He's gassed his own people. He threatens his neighbors and invades his neighbors. And so we think the people would be better served with another regime. But the President has not decided on a military action.

Dergham: All this talk about a sure military strike in the third quarter of the year is not true, then?

Secretary Powell: The President has no plan on his desk, therefore no date is relevant. But there are lots of articles out there about until you hear it from the President, the Vice President, myself, Mr. Rumsfeld and Dr. Rice, it doesn't count.

Dergham: Does it bother you that the region, the region and the immediate neighborhood decided that the best way to try to bring Iraq into that Arab fold? Is this something you encourage or discourage?

Secretary Powell: There are some who hold that view, but I also hear the view that says that as long as that regime is there and Saddam Hussein is there, you're not going to bring him in to the Arab fold in a responsible way. This is a regime, this is a leader, who did not attack America; he attacked a fellow Arab nation, Kuwait. You must remember this, The United States came to the rescue of an Arab Muslim nation just as we did in Afghanistan and just as we did in Kosovo.

Dergham: But if they decided that's the best way for them to bring Iraq back into the Arab fold, would you oppose that?

Secretary Powell: They have had ten years to-

Dergham: So you oppose that?

Secretary Powell: I don't oppose that. But they had ten years to do it, and they have not been successful so far.

Dergham: But you're not going to block it?

Secretary Powell: Well, I don't know what it is that you're asking-

Dergham: I am asking you about Saudi Arabia's efforts and what was decided upon at the Arab Summit to bring Iraq back into the Arab fold.

Secretary Powell: Well, as soon as they can persuade the whole world that Saddam Hussein is not developing weapons of mass destruction, that he's not developing missiles to deliver them, his is not prepared to threaten his neighbors, that he will respect the integrity of Kuwait and the human rights of his people. And when he says all that, then maybe we can take a look at that.

Dergham: The US image is that of a vulnerable power, a paper tiger, in the minds of some, especially after the revelations of the CLA -that the CLA did not really do a good job before Sept. 11, no capture of bin Laden. Even Mullah Omar is still on the run. Are you worried about the image of the US and its leadership and the way it's being perceived in the world?

Secretary Powell: Is the Taliban in power?

Dergham: No, but that was not the point. Taliban was the way to get Bin-Laden and al-Qaeda

Secretary Powell: Is the al-Qaeda running around Afghanistan freely?

Dergham:  We don't know.

Secretary Powell: There are some, but they are no longer a cohesive organization in Afghanistan.

Dergham: But we're told they maybe hitting us here in the US.

Secretary Powell: Well, that's the problem. It is a worldwide campaign against terror that we're conducting. And the President was very clear when he spoke to the American people after 9/11. He said this would be a long campaign; there are terrorist cells in countries all over the world, maybe 50 or 60 of them. He talked today about our intelligence and law enforcement people that made us aware of this man, Mr. Padilla, who was threatening or might have threatened us was an American citizen of all things.

So it is clear that this is a campaign that will have to be waged over along period of time, and the President will not get weary, we will not get weary, and I think we can convince the world that this is such a danger for the whole world that the world will not get weary and they will continue with in this fight. And we will show everybody that those who fight against terrorists are not paper tigers; they're doing the right work for civilization.

End

Colin L. Powell - Secretary of State - Term of Appointment: 01/20/2001 to 01/26/2005

Published in Al Hayat, June 12, 2002